Part 2 The mysterious saw hang angle

A mouthful to pronounce isn't it?

A hand saw hang angle refer to the position of the handle on the saw plate. By varying this angle we can change greatly how the saw feel in our hand and how it will cut.

Ever noticed how some handsaws feel tiring after a short time of use while others do not?
How some seems to cut more aggressively with the same tooth geometry than others?
And how some seems to be easier to start?

With everything else being equal, All of these "effects" are a result of different hang angle.

There is apparently no consensus as to how to measured it and expressed it in degrees, but nonetheless, we can graphically show it and understand what it does.

My baseline saw, a Peerless rip saw. 

The tooth line is parallel to the edge of the board

Disston D23 from the 1950's

The handle is lined up the same, but look where 

the tooth line is now pointing ! 

This one, a Disston No 7 is pointing quite

 a bit downward from my baseline.

Notice the saw's outlines on the white board showing the wide variations in angle between a few selected saws (4) from my saw till.
Now you can appreciate why it gave me so much fun trying to find a compromise to accommodate them all. Remember they are all resting on the top horn of the handle in my till.

Another way to look at it, is to visualize a line perpendicular to the handle (the part that meet the flesh of your palm) extending to the saw tooth line.  Using this method, you can look at pictures of saws and get some ideas of the saw's hang angle.

Make a T, put the short part on the handle as described above, the long part is pointing to the tooth line.

On this saw we are directing much of our force toward the toe.

Typical of older saws

This Disston D7 move that force down roughly to the middle on the tooth line

Hang angles are approximate. I do not know if my drawn lines are exactly 90 degrees, nor do I know if it is aligned correctly on the handle.

But you still get the idea...

Notice also that it is defined by the line of thrust. That is saying, where all your force pushing the handle is going....toward the tooth line... (long red line)
Being a ramp, some of the force is going forward, some of it is going down.
There is an obvious difference between the two pictured above.

Notice also the more modern saw (grey painted handle) has a skew back. That is in an effort to better balanced the saw in your hand.  Between the taper grind and the skew back, it makes the toe less heavy, which is a good thing considering where the balance point is!

You can see where the line hit the saw tooth line varies considerately.  It also happened to be where your thrust line is. That is why some saws would be harder to start while other would be easier.
It is also why some would be more tiring to use than some others.

By shifting that thrust line up and down the saw tooth line we are also changing its balance in your hands, again some will feel more comfortable than others, while some will quickly tired your wrist.

Have a look at these Disston handles and try to visualize the hang angle using the T method... Hours of fun in perspective :-)

Another point to notice is how the handle is attached to the saw blade. You will find anywhere between two, three saw nuts to five, and their arrangements varies. In some collector's circle they claim that the number of saw nuts is an indication of quality, the more the better. Not exactly. It has a lot more to do with, you guess it, that darn hang angle again ! Because depending on the angle and the resulting thrust line, the number and position of the saw nuts changes. If it didn't you would notice more broken handles...

Same two saws again Disston No 7 and D7

4 saw nuts

5 saw nuts

Run a line thru the medaillon with the most saw nuts and see how we intercept the thrust line? Those saw nuts are lined up to take that pressure and transmitted it to the saw.  Notice where there are two nuts, they are parallel to the yellow line? Coincidence? I think "nut" , saw nut to be exact :-)
Bring out the re-enforcement said the nut to the saw !!

Again not an exact science but you can visualize the large differences the saw's hang angles is having. Both on how the saw handle is attached to the saw plate and how it is going to affect its balance and feel in your hands.

Now, I don't think that the yellow and blue lines are supposed to be parallel, but it does give you an indication of where the thrust line is going.
Obviously, one is lower than the other. That's what I meant earlier when I said the saw nuts positions on the replacement handle I carved dictated my saw hang angle. Whatever hang angle I wanted on this handle, I better pay attention to the saw nuts position... or drill new holes.

Backsaws are different animal, you can used the same technique to visualize the hang angle but they also introduced another factor, the "cant" (the angle between the folded back of the saw and the tooth line, parallel  or taper?)
Most of the thrust lines are going downward to the tooth line as opposed to toward the toe of the saw in some older handsaws.
That is because we are cutting joinery, not cutting apart a long board to size.
We want the weight of the saw to help sink it down.

I bet you will never look at a handsaw the same ever again!
And it is a good thing.
Armed with this knowledge you can better understand which saws fit you better, both in sizing and balance. And which ones are less likely to tired you...

Happy saw hunting...

In an other part we will look at body mechanic while ripping or cross cutting.
Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus, and we don't attack the wood at the same angle. I bet you have some idea why by now :-)

Bob, the hand saw archaeologist digging up dirt on them

All about hand saws, part 1 the handles and the fit

Well just about everything you should know about it, anyway :-)

Ever wondered why there are so many variety of  hand saws out there?
That is because unlike a power saw, which uses mechanical power to cut its way thru wood, a hand saw rely on you for all its power.

The saw teeth, the saw plate thickness and its tension, the way the handle is shaped and its position in relation to the saw plate all are going to affect how it cut and feel in your hand.

Now add the variety of material to be cut, hardwood, softwood, man made goods etc. The thickness of the material (which dictate how many teeth you should use) the type of cut to be made in relation with the wood grain line, rip cut or cross cut, and you can start to appreciate the variety required, and why I stashed 22 in my saw till :-)

When you pick up a saw for the first time, pay attention to how it fits in your hand and how balanced it feel. (This is your first encounter with that saw hang angle)

Always use a three finger grip with your index finger extended on the handle side. It does two things. It send a signal to your brain that you want to go straight and it make the saw more rigid sideways in your hand without having to exert barely any pressure.

Slight pressure from your index finger and your thumb is all 

that is required to steer the saw...ever so gently or you will bind!

DO NOT twist your wrist to steer. The saw want to go straight, let it.

Try this:
Hold the saw lightly with the 3 finger grip, index finger extended, and now try to move the saw sideways with your other hand (or better yet someone else). Notice how it easily resist without undue gripping pressure?

Now try a 4 finger grip and repeat the same test. Notice how easy it is to move it sideways no matter how hard you grip?

You may have noticed that modern industrial saw makers (Stanley and al) are making their stupid handle hole too big and you can fit all 4 fingers in it. Never do that, and better yet, go find a real saw!

Next pay attention how the horns of the handle fit the web of your hand. Too tight and you will notice a whitish discoloration of your skin. When that happens, your heart beat rise trying to push blood into that compressed part of your hand. Just like aiming a rifle, your heart beat should be relaxed. That way you can shoot or saw straight with less fatigue and more precision.

Good fit

Way too big for my smaller paws.

On the other hand, if it feel too lose in your hand (too much space between the horns) it would be harder to saw straight without exerting more gripping force on it and you are more likely to develop blisters in use.

So ideally the saw you picked, fit your small or big paws just right and feel well balanced in your hand. How much pressure should you exert on the handle?
Pretend you have a baby bird in your hand and you do not want to crush it...
That is why a well fitted saw handle to your paws is so important.

It is often said that a saw want to cut straight, get out of its way.  You are only to point it the right direction and position.  You are there solely to supply the power behind the cut, don't try to steer it. All you are probably going to accomplish is to bend the saw plate!! But didn't I wrote previously how to steer with gentle pressure of two fingers? Yes, but forget that until you have a few "miles" under your belt with handsaws. Learn to listen to the saw and how it feel in your hands, it is giving you lots of feedback, tonality changes in pitch, roughness or smooth sailing thru the wood, binding or gliding smoothly etc.

If the saw want to naturally go right or left all the time, you have too much set on that side it favored. Slightly reduce the offending side by passing lightly a file or a oilstone (never a waterstone) on it. Go easy and check often your progress.

A saw handle with damaged or broken horns should be fixed, (just like plane's totes) you will find it more comfortable.   Again pay attention to how it fit your hand while shaping it.

Similarly, this is how I repair broken horn on plane's tote.

Cut a square recess in the damaged or missing area.

That way you have good glue surface and can clamp 

more securely your piece of wood.

Carved to match. How long and pointing in what directions? 

Uses your hand as a guide. I made no effort to disguise this repair.

 Conversely, the saw handle being made of wood, you can easily re shaped it to fit your hand.  Disclaimer, if you have a rare example, please don't do that!
And lastly, being woodworkers,  it is not that difficult to make your own replacement handle if need be.  Especially if the saw you like have one of those ugly slippery plastic handle...  Ergonomic handle my ass!

If you uses handsaws a lot and happen to have a "few" you will quickly realized how comfortable the handles used to be on the old ones (late 19th to early 20th century) and how quickly they lost their graceful shape thru the years.

These two pictures are from Disston No 7 and its successor the D7

No 7   1878-88

D7   1960s

Notice how the graceful shape is a distant memory, it is now more blocky. 

The handle is now "let-in" and the hang angle also has changed. 

Feel totally different in the hand.

Or how about a D8 with the over hand thumb hole?

Notice how flatter the handle became, and not rounded over as much.

Not as comfortable...

Once you find one pattern you like, you can use it to make replacement handles, hint, hint :-)   But beware of the hang angle...

Original broken handle, a lost cause?

My first attempt at making a replacement carved apple handle, 

20 years ago, still unfinished :-)

The saw nut pattern is telling me how to "hang" the saw.

Notice how well it fit my hand? Coincidence?

How about getting a custom saw made for you?
As long as the saw maker is willing to take your key measurements, it should fit you like a glove. Here's one example  and here is another .
Here are some more handle patterns .


Next will look at the hang angle and how it affect the "experience"

Bob, the toolman

The saw till, lessons learned

That was probably my most time consuming shop project so far, the next one would be quite simple in comparison.

Not that there was anything complicated about its construction (dovetail, thru tenons, dadoes) but simply figuring out how to best hang the saws took me the longest. I know there isn't much written about saw's hang angle, so I'll devoted an entire blog post on it soon.
In an nutshell, it has everything to do with how the saw cut and feel in your hand.

Judging by the numbers of hits I got thru google search on my saw till construction, it would appear to be a popular subject. So I thought I shared with you some of what I learned and some of the final details "as built".

But first, let me re-iterate the importance of building your own to fit your tools. NEVER follow blindly someone else dimensions (mine included), adapt it to your own tools on hand.

Almost fully loaded.

There are two empty slots right now...

About the design

After looking on line at what others built, I decided on this particular design:
- I wanted an open design that would fit within the space between the two existing plane tills. If it was to be a stand alone, I may have build it a bit taller to accommodate all the saws plates within.

As it is, the longest saws (30 in) go past a few inches.

Notice that It is sitting just about as high as I could made it. 

Taller and I would hit the pipes with the saws. 

The till is currently sitting 55-3/4 inch off the ground.

It also put the drawers a bit too high for my liking, but I can still see into them,

I am 6 foot tall. A shorter person probably could not, in which case it would be too high, for the drawers to be considered useful. Either leave those cavities open, or lower your till for your stature.

- I like a scroll side better than just a plain angled side. Strictly a personal choice issue, but having straight sides would restrict how your hand fit to grab the saws on the far ends. 

On the large (and first till I built) I went with a free hand reversing curve. It's OK, but my eyes were telling me, it could be better.

That's why I experimented with ellipse. Don't let my tongue in cheek description of how I figured out my ellipses scared you, it really is not that difficult and resulted in a much more pleasing look to my eyes. Some of the examples I have seen on line have very much exaggerated curves to my liking. Again strictly a personal taste issue.

With apologies to whomever built this, 

I find the side curvature too much for my liking.

To my eye, these reversing curves look very pleasant.

- Perhaps the biggest design considerations were how many saws to hold in my given space and how to accommodate them and still be easy to put and remove them.

As originally planned I went for 22 saws, in the end I only put in kerfs for 21, but 22 would have fit. Why 21? Because of my split handle board, that 22nd handle would hit the in between spot.

The kerfs to hold the saw plates are spaced 1-1/2 inch in between. I found that gives me the most storage density and still makes the saws easy to grab & store.

- Trying to accommodate both hand saws and back saws on the same continuous handle board (or rod) was nightmarish, don't!

By design their handle hang at very different angles. It was bad enough trying to find a middle ground for the handsaws various hangs, forget trying to also fit the backsaws, better to separate both.

One set up I tried, had the handle board sitting flush with the front of the till, I did not liked that look, so I recut my middle kerf board 1/4 in narrower to be able to push it back in.

The handsaw handle board is sitting back 3/4 inch

and the back saw board is sitting further back at 1-1/2 inches

Because their final position was up in the air until basically the last minutes, I opted to secured them using simple metal brackets. And if I ever want to changed the saws within and need to change its position, too easy.

The weight of the saws is pushing the top of the board outward, so these metal L brackets from the back are plenty strong.

- It was delaying me to screw the kerf boards from behind the back rails, before I put the back boards on, but I much prefer this method than screwing them from the front or thru the added thickness (1/2 in) of the backboards.

For two reasons;

1- I think it gives it a cleaner look, and

2- I did not wanted it to interfered with the backboards expansion / contraction.

Being made of hardwood, for durability, I pre-drilled before screwing them in.

Of course, if I ever have to replace those kerf boards or change them to accommodate different saws, I would have to removed those back boards first. 

That's why I was planning on screwing them, but by that time, I was tired of all that screwing by hand, and wanted to get it done, so I reached for (gasp) my air nailer... I`m sure those boards would be fine and won`t be much difficult to remove if I ever have the urge to. Unlikely :-)

Construction details

It was pretty well a straightforward construction. I used dovetails to secured the bottom board to the side, because, I'm comfortable doing that by hand and it make for a very strong connection. Just make sure to orient the tails correctly so the bottom board resist being pushed off downward. If you somehow reversed that, don't sweat it, it would still be pretty strong, and in this case, being painted, it wont be noticeable...

Correct orientation of the dovetails at the bottom of the side boards.

I always cut my tails first so, that was easy to remember.

Cut all the dadoes joinery before cutting the shape of the side boards, much easier that way. I used a stack dado in a tablesaw, but there are not many to cut and could have easily be cut by hand. Use whatever you prefer or are comfortable with, makes no differences.

Regardless of how you cut your dadoes, a router plane is the best tool 

to clean up the bottom evenly to a precise depth. I usually uses the pointed blade, gives me many angles of attack`s choice to pull clean cut in cross grain.

There are one dado on each side of the side pieces for the top shelf, and 3 on the bottom board (facing inside) and the bottom of the top shelf for the drawers cubicles. Sizes of dadoes? Make them fit your stock. In my case I went with 3/4 in wide by 1/4 in deep. That just happened to be my standard go to size. Plenty strong. You want to make them a snug fit but not too tight so that you cannot slide them in. Glue will lubricate and help you slide them in.

For reasons explained earlier I went with thru mortise and tenons to secured the back rails (2). I was going to make them split tenons and wedged them, but I got carried away at glue up time and forgot all about them. Oh well, they are still pretty strong, since I wait till after I fit my tenons to the mortise before making the mortise wall inclined for the wedges. My tenons are snug fit as it was, and besides it is painted over anyway :-)

Whatever joinery choices I make are always for strength in a given application more than show off pretty joinery.

Whenever I can, I like to gang cut my profiles on the bandsaw. Again a personal choice. But cutting them together and cleaning them up together is a sure way to ensure they would look the same. Just make sure to have your dadoes facing inside :-)

I uses rasp, spokeshaves and sand paper on a piece of rod to cleaned them up. My favorite spokeshaves for this type of cut is by far a wooden one, because of its low angle cutting geometry.

The final width, numbers and positions of the back rails were more for a pleasant look than by design.  Similarly, my back boards final dimensions were arrived at by trial and errors to get a balanced look evenly spaced. I started at 5-1/2 in and ended up at 4-1/2 in wide boards, that gave me a 4 in reveal in front.

I am pleased with that beaded detail look.

The boards are uniformed and centered.

It is critical to cut your kerfs with the same spacing in the top and middle kerf boards, or your saws wont go in easily, even with a small offset. So the easiest way to ensure that, is to gang cut them on the tablesaw. I used a thin kerf blade to minimize the width of the kerfs.

In addition, before separating your kerf boards, put some markings on them, it will save you some head scratching later, take my word on it :-)

Were the drawers necessary? No, but I like the look. You can opt to leave those cavities open, but in this case, close off completely the back. Either extend your back boards all the way down or simply uses a 1/4 in plywood to close off the opening. 

Things I would have done differently

- I forgot two things while building it:

1- I should have made my top shelf narrower to accommodate my back boards. As I did it, I ended up having no back support for the back boards. I ended up re-cutting that shelf narrower by 1/2 in after assembly, and having to notch my dividers.  No biggie, but why give yourself more trouble :-)

Either that or add another back rail with a rabbet at that juncture of the shelf.

2- I forgot to add a rabbet on the top rail to capture the back boards. I would have either had to used a thicker stock for that top rail or, like I ended up doing after, simply added another board on top to make up the rabbet. In insight, it was easier to do that, since it avoid machining a different thickness rail but just be aware of the detail need.

- I could have saved myself lots of time and aggravation by not trying to uses the same handle board to fit all my saws.

- I got lucky with my final position of the top kerf board. Why? because by then I had already glued and screwed the top part of the French cleat on the back, and I did not had much room left to screw in the kerf board. It could not end up under the cleat or I would never be able to removed it.

That was more of a fluke than by design, so keep that in mind. To get more room make the top of the till a tad longer, the top rail wider or the rabbet less wide so that you have room to screw the top kerf board below the French cleat.

If you click on the pic to expand it, look at where the screws 

landed under the cleat, very close.  I got lucky :-)

- Oh, and it is always a good idea to first try your molding plane settings on a piece of scrap wood before committing to your good piece... Just saying :-)

So keeping all the above in mind, here are the final, as built, dimensions;

Made from 3/4 in thick stock machined from 4/4 rough stock

Saw till overall height 32 in

Width 37-1/2 in

Depth 10 in

Distance between the bottom and the top of the shelf 5 in

Inside dimension of the drawers cavity 3-1/2 in height X 11-3/8 in wide X 10 in deep.

The back rails are 3 in wide and are located 10-1/4 in and 23 in from the top of the shelf.

Height and length of the handle board for handsaws & mitre box saws 3 in X 25-3/4 in.

It is spaced 3/4 in from the front of the till.

Height and length of the handle board for backsaws 3-1/2 in X 10 in.

It is spaced 1-1/2 in from the front of the till.

The round over on top of the handle boards were done with a No 11 hollow plane.

The kerf boards are made of 7/8 in thick maple.

The top kerf board is 36 in long, but only has 15 kerfs cut into it.

it is 1-1/2 in wide and the kerfs are 1/2 in deep. It is positioned 24 in from the top of the shelf.

The middle kerfs boards are in 4 sections.

The handsaw one is 2-1/2 in wide with 1-1/4 in deep kerfs X 12.

The Mitre box saw one is 2-1/4 in wide and has 3/4 in kerfs into it X 3.

The backsaws one is made of two identical boards, same stock as the Mitre box one, but they are 9-1/2 in long and have 6 kerfs each.

The backboards are 1/2 in thick X 4-1/2 in wide, have a rabbet of 1/2 in wide 1/4 in thick then tweaked to lay flat between each boards. Why the tweaking? because I machined them by hand, there was some minor variations.

The size of my bead was 3/16 in (as stamped on the beader plane)

and the small bevel was just eyeballed and cut with a block plane. It is approximately 1/4 in wide.

So there you have it, another shop project done.  Well I still got three drawers to make but for now it will do. I`m moving on to the next project and got a few more things to catch up around the house and a bathroom reno to finish with my friend.

If you have any questions about it or some of my other projects, just leave me a comment.

Thanks

Bob, slowing down in the shop for a little while.  Got other priorities coming up.

Finishing the saw till

Yes, finally! That's why there was no post yesterday...in case you wondered :-)

My back boards are all done, beads and all, painted.
One of them had a loose knot so I soaked it all around with super glue on both sides Friday. It is now solid and has been painted over.

The end board that I salvaged has been recut to its proper width and also painted.

The French cleat parts are installed, both on the till and the wall.
Normally I install the bottom spacer to the wall and screw the cabinet to it, but in this case, I would have nothing to screw into the back of the till.
So I reversed the operation. Understanding that it would be tricky to hit the stud from within those small drawers boxes, I first put my spacer to the wall as usual, to mark my holes location, then removed it, drilled its holes and secured it to the till with glue and screws. That way, I'm guaranteed to hit the studs when I screw it to the wall.

The screws holes on the French cleat part on the wall need to be

 recessed in order for the till to lay flat on the wall.

My new holders made of maple have been machined, but one had a crack I didn't see and it came apart once I separated my sandwich of maple...

No biggie, I made extra parts just in case...

Still managed to make three trips to the woodshop yesterday...

My saw handle board has been cut in 2 parts, to better accommodate the various saw's hangs. I added a piece at the bottom of the back saw handle board to raise the handles up, some where touching the shelf on the till. Similarly, my middle kerf board got its kerf recut deeper and I added a piece in the back also to give me more room to fully engaged the saw's plate.

Both boards cooking last nite

This morning after cleaning up my glued boards, I cut a round profile on the

 top part of the handle board, using a block plane to rough out the waste 

then a Hollow plane followed by a light sanding.

Now it's time to finalize my optimum locations for each (3) sections.
That required a few back and forth experiments with my boards width and saw kerf's depth, and a few trips to the woodshop.

I first experimented with various kerf depth but in the end I cut them all the same depth. That way, the saws are not dedicated to a peculiar spot on the till. I think it's better that way.

This testing could go an and on...

I got quite a variety of hangs on my saws selection!

I also experimented with two kerf boards for the back saw.

I find that engaging the plate with only one makes the longest one too floppy.

In the end, I cut the middle kerf board in two parts, the longer one for the handsaws (which gave me so much trouble to get it right) got a piece added on, then I recut about a 1/4 in off it. The shorter one (3 kerfs for the Mitre box saws) did not get any add on piece behind.
And the back saws get two short length of 6 kerfs board, mounted with a space in between to engage all the saws in two places.

To install the kerf boards, I pre-drilled the hardwood pieces to avoid nasty surprises at this stage. I said earlier that I was going to used oak for those kerf boards (pine being too soft, and would get chew up) but in the end I used maple. I was worrying about the tannin reacting with the steel plate of the saws.

And the handle boards can be secured. I'm using metal L-brackets with screws to fasten these. 3 brackets on the longer piece, only 2 on the short one.

Once finally installed, the back boards went on. I said I was going to screw them in, but by now, I was getting tired of screwing everything by hand so I just pinned them with 18 gauge 3/4 in pins. I put 6 on each boards, should be more than sufficient and should not be too difficult to removed them if ever needed.

Dime spacers in place, pinned each boards in three places 

with two pins top, middle and bottom. 

Will be able to flex and move as required with the seasons.

Then it is screwed solidly to the wall joining its two brethren already in place
It can now be loaded with its precious cargo...well once the wipe on Poly is dried. I forgot to do the top kerf piece this morning so it just recently got its coat(s)
I will wait until it is dry before I put the saws in...

So there it is, finally in all its glory! minus its cargo...

Only thing left to do is to build the three drawers. Since it may be a little while until I get "Round tuit" I decided that I should paint the inside cavities for the drawers, so it doesn't look "unfinished" :-)

Meanwhile, it is now time to start to prepared the wood for my next project, the bottom tool chest cabinet for my antique small joiner chest.

Oh, and I better start on the drawers wood parts also :-)

Bob, really happy how his modest shop is turning out so far.